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1 CITY OF PHILADELPHIA
2 ZONING BOARD OF ADJUSTMENT
3 ------------------------------x
APPLICANT: : Calendar
4 : No. 99-1284
DRANOFF PROPERTIES, INC. : No. 99-1285
5 :
IN RE: :
6 4601-45 Flat Rock Road and :
4700 Flat Rock Road :
7 ------------------------------x
Monday, November 22, 1999
8 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
- - -
9
Hearing of the ZONING BOARD OF
10 ADJUSTMENT, held at 1515 Arch Street, 18th Floor,
on the above date, beginning at approximately 2:20
11 p.m., before Angela C. Buonantuono, Court Reporter
and Commissioner of Deeds.
12
13 APPEARANCES:
14 BOARD MEMBERS:
15 Thomas J. Kelly, Chairman
David L. Auspitz
16 Susan O.W. Jaffe
Rosalie M. Leonard
17 Thomas D. Logan
18 Martin T. Gregorski, City Planner
19
20
- - -
21
22 DELCASALE, CASEY, MARTIN & MANCHELLO
Registered Professional Reporters
23 Suite 636 - 1801 Market Street
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
24 (215) 568-2211
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
2
1 APPEARANCES (Continued):
2 BLANK ROME COMISKY & McCAULEY, LLP
BY: PETER F. KELSEN, ESQUIRE
3 One Logan Square
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103-6998
4
Counsel for Applicants, Dranoff
5 Properties, Inc.
6
7 KRAKOWER & MASON
BY: STANLEY R. KRAKOWER, ESQUIRE
8 2300 Aramark Tower
1101 Market Street
9 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107
10 Counsel for Friends of Manayunk Canal
11
12 O'BRIEN AND ASSOCIATES
BY: WILLIAM J. O'BRIEN, II, ESQUIRE
13 4322 Main Street
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19127
14
Counsel for Manayunk Neighborhood
15 Council and Wissahickon Neighbors Civic
Association
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
3
1 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Calendar
2 99-1284 and 1285. 4601-45 and 4700 Flat
3 Rock Road.
4 MR. KELSEN: Good afternoon,
5 Mr. Chairman and Members of the Board.
6 Peter Kelsen for the Applicant, Dranoff
7 Properties, for both of these cases.
8 CHAIRMAN KELLY: On 4601-45
9 Flat Rock Road the application is for the
10 relocation of lot lines to create one lot
11 from two lots, and for the demolition of
12 four portions of an existing building, and
13 demolition of a one-story structure with
14 the erection of a six-story addition and
15 two and four-story addition to the
16 remaining structure with conversion of
17 Building E-1 to be used as a fitness area
18 for residents and apartment units.
19 In E-2 residential storage
20 facility and apartment units. E-3
21 residential activities facility and
22 apartment units. E-4 to remain vacant.
23 P-1 residential apartments.
24 P-2A lobby and management office and
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
4
1 apartment units. P-2B apartment units for
2 a total of 160 residential units proposing
3 160 parking spaces, five of which are
4 accessible spaces and 55 are compact
5 spaces. (17 of those compact spaces are
6 crossing the existing property lines and
7 require either an easement, agreement or
8 proof of ownership of the abutting
9 property).
10 This construction is within the
11 floodway and no new construction or
12 development is permitted.
13 These structures must be flood
14 proofed to 40.3 City datum. Whereas
15 residences are prohibited in the District,
16 it is required to provide six accessible
17 spaces for 160 parking spaces. The
18 required size of a parking space is nine by
19 18, and accessible spaces are required to
20 be 13 by 18. Compact spaces are not
21 permitted in the District. Stack parking
22 is not permitted. It is required to
23 provide an area equal to 25 percent of the
24 parking spaces for aisles and driveways as
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
5
1 access to the parking spaces.
2 One zoning refusal. Five use
3 refusals.
4 The Board approved the
5 manufacture and storage of cleaning
6 products and specialty chemicals in 1988
7 at 4647-61 Flat Rock Road.
8 The Board approved an addition
9 to a soap and detergent manufacturing plant
10 in 84 at 4601 Flat Rock Road.
11 The Board granted a variance
12 for the erection of an addition as part of
13 the manufacturing and storage of soap in
14 1980.
15 Note to the Zoning Board of
16 Adjustments, See Section 14-1802(3)(a).
17 Issuance of a permit is pending approval
18 through appropriate agencies and an
19 engineering study to support the fact that
20 there will be no net rise or negative
21 impact.
22 I want to read the other
23 refusal into the record before we get
24 started. This is 4700 Flat Rock Road.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
6
1 The application is for the
2 relocation of lot lines to create one lot
3 from three, erection of an eight-foot high
4 fence, and the creation of a private
5 parking lot having a total of 54 spaces
6 with sizes as follows: 44 at 8'6" by 18,
7 and seven at 8 and 18, and three at 8'6" by
8 20. Two handicapped accessible will be
9 required.
10 This private parking lot is to
11 be used by the property located at 4601
12 Flat Rock Road whereas in this District the
13 required minimum size of a parking space is
14 9 by 18 will not be met, and the two
15 handicapped accessible spaces will not be
16 provided.
17 One use refusal. Sir...
18 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Chairman,
19 members of the Board, let me give a little
20 introduction if I will, and then I will
21 turn the testimony over to our expert
22 witnesses.
23 There are two separate cases,
24 although they're companion cases, and I
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
7
1 would ask the Board to hear and decide them
2 on a combined basis.
3 The subject property as
4 indicated by the photographs and the site
5 plan and survey consist of a series of
6 obsolete, deteriorated and blighted
7 industrial buildings which had previously
8 been used for the manufacture of soap
9 products by the Namico Company. The
10 property is now vacant. Namico has shut
11 down their operations at this location.
12 The property is located on
13 Venice Island in the Manayunk section of
14 Philadelphia. It is bordered on one side
15 by the Schuylkill River on its southerly
16 side, and the Manayunk Canal on its
17 northerly edge, on its opposite edge.
18 The property as indicated on
19 zoning map 6-4, a copy of which I have
20 given the Board, is zoned G-2 industrial.
21 Both parcels are G-2 industrial.
22 And if the Board looks at the
23 zoning map, you will note that all of the
24 properties located on Flat Rock Road are,
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
8
1 in fact, zoned G-2 industrial, as are
2 virtually all of the properties that are
3 directly adjacent to the site across the
4 Manayunk Canal.
5 Venice Island was formerly and
6 is predominantly an industrial island.
7 It's the home of many heavy industrial
8 uses, or former heavier industrial uses.
9 The two properties front along
10 Flat Rock Road and the application before
11 the Board includes both of these parcels.
12 The main development parcel, as
13 indicated on this plan, which is
14 immediately adjacent to Leverington Road as
15 well as Flat Rock Road, and a small parcel
16 which is directly across Flat Rock Road
17 budding up against the Schuylkill River.
18 This will be the main
19 development site, and we will convert this
20 property into a high-end residential use.
21 And this property here across
22 Flat Rock Road will be used for private
23 parking for the residents and will be
24 basically accessory to this application.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
9
1 There are several variances
2 required from the Zoning Board in order to
3 allow this reuse of the property.
4 The property is located within
5 the floodway of the Schuylkill River and
6 the Manayunk Canal and therefore the
7 proposed development will require a
8 variance to permit improvements to be
9 placed within the floodway.
10 The evidence before you will be
11 extensive as to why this application will
12 constitute a betterment of the flood
13 situation as opposed to a detriment.
14 In addition, Members of the
15 Board, a variance is required to use the
16 G-2 zone property for residential use.
17 That's a variance you have seen before,
18 especially in cases where we come before
19 obsolete buildings and ask to convert them
20 to residential development.
21 And, finally, there will be
22 variances required for parking space or
23 parking lot configuration. They are di
24 minimus and dimensional in nature.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
10
1 Basically they deal with the issue of the
2 slot size as well as a stacking component.
3 What we propose to do, Members
4 of the Board, is an extensive demolition
5 and reconstruction of the former Namico
6 site to convert it to 160 residential
7 apartments with an accessory fitness center
8 for residents use, services and facilities.
9 It will be entirely a residential
10 development.
11 The majority of the
12 development, as Mr. Thrower will describe,
13 will make reuse of the former industrial
14 building. Many of the buildings are
15 historic, we will rehab them, we will reuse
16 them, bring them back and add vitality to
17 the site.
18 We will also create new
19 construction keeping with the scale and
20 scope of the property, as well as the
21 property, it's along Manayunk, in terms of
22 size and configuration, and allow us to
23 reuse this obsolete structure.
24 We will provide 214 car parking
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
11
1 on this property and this property
2 (indicating), on-site basically, to
3 accommodate the parking needs of our
4 residents.
5 I will have the Board note that
6 the new structures will all be constructed,
7 as will the existing structure in full
8 accordance with the floodway regulations as
9 governed by the City of Philadelphia's
10 building code, the BOCA code, FEMA
11 regulations, Army Corp regulations, and
12 Planning Commission regulations.
13 In essence, Members of the
14 Board, there will be no residential
15 occupancy above the -- below rather or at
16 the 100-year flood elevation. Everything
17 will begin at the second-floor level
18 basically and will be built at least 14
19 feet above so that we will be at least a
20 foot and a half above the mean 100-year
21 flood elevation.
22 Members of the Board, the
23 testimony and evidence will demonstrate
24 that the proposed application not only
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
12
1 fulfills the requirements for the grant of
2 the variance as I've described, but
3 actually would result in a situation where
4 if the Board denies the variances at issue,
5 the result will be a negative impact on the
6 community and surrounding properties
7 because without this variance and without
8 this redevelopment, the property will
9 continue to be deteriorated and blighted
10 with no hope for any industrial reuse, and
11 it will prevent a betterment of the
12 floodway situation.
13 With that, let me call my first
14 witness.
15 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Before you do,
16 councilman requests to read a letter into
17 the record.
18 MALE SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman and
19 Members of the Board and the applicant, I
20 appreciate the opportunity to speak out of
21 turn, but I need to get back into the
22 office.
23 Mr. Chairman, if I can I will
24 hand up a letter and I would like to read
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
13
1 it into the record, and I have copies for
2 the Members of the Board.
3 It's a letter to Mr. Thomas J.
4 Kelly, Chairman, Zoning Board of
5 Adjustment, Municipal Services Building on
6 these two particular items dated today.
7 "Dear Chairman Kelly: The
8 above-referenced matter is scheduled for a
9 zoning hearing on Monday, November 22nd,
10 1999 at 2 o'clock p.m.. The applications
11 are for the relocation of lot lines,
12 demolition of existing buildings, an
13 erection of structures for conversion to a
14 160-unit apartment building with 160
15 parking spaces, fitness area, lobby,
16 management office, and for an additional
17 private parking lot with 54 spaces and a
18 fence.
19 "The site in question is the
20 former Namico Soap Factory located on a
21 part of Venice Island in Manayunk and is
22 currently zoned G-2 industrial.
23 The Manayunk area community
24 organizations have requested" -- this
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
14
1 letter was obviously written before, right
2 before this moment -- "requested a
3 continuance be granted to allow further
4 discussion with the applicant". I think
5 the Board has heard discussion about that.
6 "I support the community in
7 this request and would encourage the
8 applicant to request of the Board to grant
9 a continuance.
10 "If, however, the Board
11 proceeds to hear the case, then I am
12 stating my opposition to the application.
13 "Members of the Zoning Board
14 are probably familiar with the events of
15 September 16th, 1999 when the City
16 experienced an extremely heavy rainfall
17 resulting from Hurricane Floyd.
18 "This lead to severe flooding
19 in many locations in Philadelphia and
20 especially in the vicinity of Venice Island
21 and Main Street in Manayunk.
22 "The application before you was
23 a site which suffered serious flooding and
24 which is located within the floodway. I,
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
15
1 therefore, question the wisdom in
2 converting this former factory building
3 into apartment units.
4 "Local, state and federal laws
5 and regulations prohibit certain structures
6 and expansions of existing structures
7 located in floodways.
8 "Further, these laws and
9 regulations specifically encourage actions
10 which reduce flood loss and minimize the
11 impact on health, safety and welfare if
12 flooding occurs.
13 "Given the most recent event
14 and location of this property, the Board
15 should deny the application.
16 "If this Board, after full
17 review of the testimony, decides to grant
18 the request of variances, however, then I
19 would strongly recommend that the Board
20 consider including the following provisos.
21 "Number 1, applicant should
22 prepare engineering studies which
23 demonstrate that the proposed development
24 will not result in any increase in the
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
16
1 flood levels and will not increase the
2 danger of flooding. Such studies shall be
3 submitted to the Planning Commission for
4 its review and approval prior to
5 construction.
6 "Number 2, applicant shall
7 secure any and all permits or
8 authorizations required by the Federal
9 Emergency Management Agency, and the
10 Pennsylvania Department of Environmental
11 Protection for the proposed development
12 prior to construction.
13 "Number 3, applicant shall
14 prepare in consultation with the City's
15 emergency management office, police and
16 fire department, an emergency evacuation
17 plan prior to occupancy.
18 "In summary, I encourage the
19 Board to refuse the application. If the
20 Board should approve the application, I am
21 requesting that my suggested provisos,
22 along with any other reasonable provisos
23 offered by representatives of those
24 neighborhood organizations adjacent to this
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
17
1 site be conditions of your approval.
2 "Thank you for your attention
3 to this matter. Please do not hesitate to
4 contact me" -- blah, blah, blah --
5 "Sincerely, Councilman Nutter, Fourth
6 Council, Manayunk District."
7 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Thank you,
8 sir.
9 MR. KELSEN: I have no
10 questions of the councilman.
11 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Please
12 proceed.
13 MR. KELSEN: I would like to
14 call Jack Thrower as our first witness.
15 MR. THROWER: John E. Thrower,
16 T-h-r-o-w-e-r, 7209 Cresheim Road,
17 Philadelphia, 19119.
18 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, you
19 were previously sworn in by the Board.
20 Is that correct?
21 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
22 MR. KELSEN: And you are
23 continuing to be under oath.
24 Is that correct?
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
18
1 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
2 MR. KELSEN: Would you state
3 your address, your local address for the
4 record?
5 MR. THROWER: My home address
6 is 7209 Cresheim Road, Philadelphia.
7 MR. KELSEN: And your business
8 address?
9 MR. THROWER: 1216 Arch Street,
10 Philadelphia.
11 MR. KELSEN: By whom are you
12 employed, Mr. Thrower?
13 MR. THROWER: I'm
14 self-employed. I'm a principal in an
15 architectural firm.
16 MR. KELSEN: What is the name
17 of the architectural firm?
18 MR. THROWER: Bower, Lewis,
19 Thrower Architects.
20 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, would
21 you briefly describe to the Board your
22 qualifications and your work experience?
23 MR. THROWER: I've been
24 practicing in Philadelphia as a registered
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1 architect for over 30 years.
2 I was educated here, a master
3 of architecture. I taught for 25 years in
4 the Graduate School at the University of
5 Pennsylvania.
6 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, are
7 you experienced in historic rehabilitation
8 projects for former industrial properties?
9 MR. THROWER: Yes, our firm and
10 I have specifically done quite a number of
11 similar projects.
12 MR. KELSEN: Have you ever been
13 involved in a project involving the
14 restoration of an industrial building that
15 is located in a floodway?
16 MR. THROWER: Yes, in
17 Minneapolis, St. Paul in the floodway of
18 the Mississippi River.
19 MR. KELSEN: Have you ever been
20 involved in a project located at 24th and
21 Chestnut Street in Philadelphia?
22 MR. THROWER: Yes, I have, most
23 recently.
24 MR. KELSEN: And is that
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
20
1 project the old National Publishing
2 Building.
3 Is that correct?
4 MR. THROWER: Yes, sir.
5 MR. KELSEN: Is that property
6 located in the floodway?
7 MR. THROWER: It is in the
8 floodway of the Schuylkill River also.
9 MR. KELSEN: And did that
10 project involve a restoration of the
11 building for residential use?
12 MR. THROWER: It was
13 restoration for residential use.
14 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, would
15 you please describe to the Board and to the
16 members of the community the existing site
17 condition of what we'll call the Namico
18 site.
19 MR. THROWER: The site, as has
20 been previously described briefly, is
21 approximately three acres including the
22 small out parcel across the road.
23 A number of industrial
24 buildings built over quite a period of
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
21
1 time. Those buildings that are color-coded
2 green are the ones considered most
3 historic. They are on the National
4 Register of historic places, and they are
5 to be retained.
6 Over the years several dozen
7 miscellaneous buildings have been added in
8 an ad hoc fashion, having to do with the
9 conditions required for the manufacturing
10 process there.
11 We are proposing to remove all
12 of those late additions and to maintain the
13 green historic buildings and restore them
14 to their former condition to be reused for
15 residential use.
16 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, what
17 is the present condition of the
18 improvements, if you will, that are located
19 on the property?
20 MR. THROWER: All of the
21 buildings are in rapidly deteriorating
22 condition. They haven't been upgraded or
23 repaired in some time and are, quite
24 frankly, unsightly.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
22
1 MR. KELSEN: Is there any
2 likelihood that they are in a condition to
3 be rehabilitated for industrial use?
4 MR. THROWER: Not without a
5 great deal of effort, and it's difficult to
6 imagine another industrial use that would
7 find the site such as this appropriate for
8 its activity.
9 MR. KELSEN: What's the
10 approximate age of the original
11 construction, the structures that we're
12 going to retain as part of this
13 development?
14 MR. THROWER: The original
15 buildings were built beginning in
16 approximately 1850, built during the last
17 half of the 19th Century.
18 MR. KELSEN: Would you describe
19 in detail the proposed redevelopment plan
20 for this property, please?
21 MR. KRAKOWER: Objection. I'm
22 going to object to that because I'm not
23 aware of any redevelopment plan that has
24 been presented to City Council as of yet.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
23
1 MR. KELSEN: Well, I was using
2 redevelopment plan with a lower case R, but
3 I'll happily say the proposed development
4 that's before the Board.
5 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Objection so
6 noted.
7 Please continue, sir.
8 MR. THROWER: The plan is to
9 prune out, if you will, in this diagram all
10 of the gray buildings. These are the
11 miscellaneous ad hoc additions done
12 primarily during this century.
13 To leave the green buildings,
14 which are historic and quite beautiful in
15 their basic structure. To rehabilitate
16 them, to restore them to meet the
17 requirements for the Department of Interior
18 so that the buildings can maintain their
19 status, and to add to those buildings
20 additional new construction -- these are
21 the areas that are toned in pink -- for
22 residential use.
23 The new construction along with
24 the old will bring the total residential
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
24
1 density on the parcel up to 160 units. We
2 are removing approximately 60 percent of
3 the structures on the property.
4 Presently the buildings toned
5 both green and gray occupy about 52,000
6 square feet. When we are completed with
7 our restoration of the green structures,
8 our construction of the new construction,
9 the pink ones that are lifted above the
10 floodways so that water can flow underneath
11 them, the solid building area on the site,
12 if you will, that one might consider an
13 obstruction to the floodway, will be
14 reduced from about 52,000 square feet to
15 about 23.
16 MR. KELSEN: So approximately
17 one-half?
18 MR. THROWER: A little less
19 than one-half of the present building
20 volume will be on the site at grade within
21 the floodway when our improvements are
22 completed.
23 MR. KELSEN: Now, Mr. Thrower,
24 there are a number of tanks that are placed
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
25
1 on the property now. And you've seen the
2 pictures of the property, and you've been
3 to the property.
4 Is that correct?
5 MR. THROWER: Of course.
6 MR. KELSEN: Are those tanks
7 going to be removed from the site?
8 MR. THROWER: They will all be
9 removed, yes.
10 MR. KELSEN: And will that also
11 open area up for floodway control?
12 MR. THROWER: Yes, sir, that's
13 true.
14 MR. KELSEN: And what will the
15 new construction -- you indicated that
16 there will be new construction and there
17 will be a configuration of the new
18 construction above grade.
19 I would like you to spend some
20 time and describe that to the Board, if you
21 will.
22 MR. THROWER: The new
23 construction, as you can see, is adding
24 onto the additional -- onto the existing
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
26
1 historic buildings. They are shaped in
2 this kind of C configuration with the
3 courtyard in the middle.
4 Our intention is to end up with
5 a total building complex that maintains the
6 character of what is there.
7 We're not intending to mimic
8 the historic style, but we are building in
9 a similar height, similar materials,
10 similar textures and rhythms, if you will,
11 of windows, so as to maintain all of the
12 charm and character of the historic
13 buildings.
14 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, what
15 will be the total height of the existing
16 buildings as well as the new construction
17 when completed?
18 MR. THROWER: We are proposing
19 to add five floors of new construction.
20 There are presently four floors
21 of the historic buildings, but the
22 floor-to-floor heights are considerably
23 higher.
24 MS. JAFFE: Can I ask you a
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
27
1 question.
2 The historical buildings that
3 you're restoring, are they already within
4 the floodway?
5 MR. THROWER: Yes, they are.
6 MS. JAFFE: Can you point that
7 out to us?
8 MR. THROWER: That is the
9 buildings that are toned green and the
10 whole site area is within the floodway.
11 And the point I wanted to make
12 earlier was that once we prune out all of
13 the existing additions, the buildings at
14 grade within the floodway will be less than
15 half of the volume of what there is there
16 today.
17 MS. JAFFE: And when those are
18 taken down, they will be reconstructed both
19 on that land and land further away?
20 Will be they overlaid on what
21 was taken down?
22 MR. THROWER: The new
23 construction will be built up on columns,
24 if you will, above the floodplain, on the
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
28
1 existing site where we removed other
2 buildings.
3 MS. JAFFE: Okay.
4 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower,
5 that's an important question Ms. Jaffe
6 asked.
7 There will be no new
8 construction IN any location other than
9 that which currently has structure.
10 Is that correct?
11 MR. THROWER: I would have to
12 say that our new construction is
13 approximately over the footprint of the
14 existing buildings.
15 It's difficult to mimic inch
16 for inch the exact location.
17 MR. KELSEN: But predominantly?
18 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
19 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Sir, you said
20 that you were going to take all of the
21 tanks and vessels out of the property?
22 MR. THROWER: Yes.
23 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Has this
24 property -- how long has it been vacant as
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
29
1 a soap manufacturer?
2 MR. THROWER: About six months.
3 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Six months.
4 Was there a discharge from this property
5 into the Schuylkill with waste?
6 MR. THROWER: Not that I'm
7 aware of.
8 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Thank you.
9 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, is
10 the entire property and, in fact, is not
11 all of Venice Island within a floodway?
12 MR. THROWER: To the best of my
13 knowledge, all of the island is in the
14 floodway.
15 MR. KELSEN: And to the best of
16 your knowledge is all of this property
17 that's before the Board within the floodway
18 currently?
19 MR. THROWER: Yes, sir.
20 MR. KELSEN: I would like you
21 to describe to the Board and to the members
22 of the audience our parking configuration
23 and the parking areas, if you would.
24 MR. THROWER: Parking is being
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
30
1 provided in two locations on the site.
2 Most of it on the main site proper, 54
3 spaces on the site across the way.
4 I believe the requirement for
5 parking is one automobile per dwelling unit
6 for this location.
7 We're providing more than that,
8 we're providing one automobile for every
9 bedroom within the development, recognizing
10 the possibility that a two-bedroom
11 apartment might conceivably be rented to
12 two people with their own automobiles.
13 We are providing approximately
14 a little less than 25 percent compact cars,
15 we're providing all of the required
16 handicap spots.
17 The only thing that is slightly
18 unusual about our parking lot configuration
19 is that for those apartments where we're
20 providing two automobiles for one dwelling
21 unit, those automobiles are parked in
22 stacked fashion one behind the other,
23 presuming that that household has control
24 over both sets of the keys, and this
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
31
1 minimizes the amount of access way and
2 driveways we have to provide on the site.
3 Our parking spots are eight and
4 a half by 18, which are perfectly adequate
5 for residential use as opposed to ten by 20
6 which I believe are required for industrial
7 use.
8 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, could
9 you describe for the Board the unit mix
10 that we propose for this development?
11 MR. THROWER: It's a small
12 number of studio apartments, approximately
13 4 studio units, 103 one-bedroom units, and
14 53 two-bedroom units.
15 So approximately two-thirds of
16 the apartments are one bedrooms, one-third
17 are two bedroom units, and those
18 two-bedroom units, as I said, will each
19 have two parking spots.
20 MS. JAFFE: Do you know the
21 square footage or will they vary?
22 MR. THROWER: They will vary.
23 MS. JAFFE: What's the smallest
24 and what would be the largest?
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1 MR. THROWER: The one-bedroom
2 apartments are typically in the 750 to 800
3 square foot range. The two-bedroom
4 apartments about 1100. That is where we're
5 in control of it in new construction.
6 In the historic buildings very
7 often the apartments are somewhat larger
8 than that because we have to make use of
9 the building fabric as we find it, of
10 course.
11 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, will
12 the construction comply with the
13 Philadelphia Fire Code?
14 MR. THROWER: It will, of
15 course, comply with all requirements of the
16 Philadelphia codes.
17 MR. KELSEN: That includes the
18 Building Code?
19 MR. THROWER: Building Code,
20 yes.
21 MR. KELSEN: As well as any
22 other development code governing this type
23 of construction?
24 MR. THROWER: Yes, sir.
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1 MR. KELSEN: Could you describe
2 to the Board the provisions for garbage and
3 trash disposal.
4 Will there be a garbage
5 disposal unit in each apartment?
6 MR. THROWER: Each apartment,
7 as a part of its appliance package, will
8 have its own garbage disposal unit.
9 In addition, there will be
10 either one or two central trash chutes
11 where residents can bring their trash on a
12 regular daily basis.
13 Trash will then go in these
14 locations down to a trash storage room
15 where there's a compactor which shall
16 compact it, and then there will be a
17 contractor trash pick up probably twice
18 weekly.
19 MR. KELSEN: And that's a
20 commercial trash pick up.
21 Is that correct?
22 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
23 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, are
24 you familiar with the surrounding land uses
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
34
1 and the streetscape of the Manayunk area
2 adjacent to the parcel?
3 MR. THROWER: Yes, I am.
4 MR. KELSEN: In your expert
5 opinion will this development be consistent
6 with the surrounding land uses?
7 MR. THROWER: As those land
8 uses exist today and as they develop, there
9 is, of course, immediately east of us a
10 large industrial use that for the present
11 is continuing, but immediately to the other
12 side of the canal, new housing is being
13 proposed, planning is underway for a new
14 housing development on the other side of
15 Leverington Road.
16 MR. KRAKOWER: Note my
17 objection only because you're talking about
18 things that are proposed, that are planned
19 but do not exist, and may never exist.
20 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Objection so
21 noted.
22 Please continue, sir.
23 MR. THROWER: We are at the end
24 of Main Street of course, and it's
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
35
1 commercial activity is completed at this
2 point.
3 Manayunk rises on the hillside
4 then, immediately on the other side of the
5 canal, and is quite a charming complex of
6 old and historic residential uses.
7 MR. KELSEN: In terms of the
8 development of the Manayunk Canal tow path
9 how does this development fit in with that
10 restoration project and that development
11 project?
12 MR. THROWER: Well, we believe
13 it's quite consistent and is going to
14 certainly add to the charm and character of
15 the canal by helping to restore the
16 historic building fabric along the canal.
17 So I think the picturesque
18 quality of the canal is going to be very
19 much improved.
20 MR. KELSEN: In terms of an
21 architectural and planning standpoint, its
22 conversion into a residential development,
23 would that be in keeping with the
24 development scale of Manayunk and the
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
36
1 surrounding area?
2 MR. THROWER: Oh, most
3 certainly.
4 These buildings are quite
5 charming and historic in scale now despite
6 their industrial use. They aren't massive,
7 overpowering buildings.
8 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, from
9 an architectural and planning standpoint,
10 do you believe that this project represents
11 the highest and best use for reuse of this
12 property?
13 MR. KRAKOWER: Objection. Note
14 my objection to that question.
15 I don't think Mr. Thrower has
16 been qualified as a real estate expert,
17 only as an architect.
18 MR. KELSEN: I think he can
19 answer the question from an architectural
20 standpoint.
21 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Objection so
22 noted. From an architectural point of
23 view, sir.
24 MR. THROWER: In my opinion it
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
37
1 is far and away the best use for these
2 buildings.
3 It is unlikely that industrial
4 uses would be attracted back to such a
5 site, nor is it desirable in my estimation,
6 and I don't believe there are any
7 commercial uses that are appropriate here.
8 Residential use is the most
9 benign from the standpoint of the impact on
10 the neighboring community, and the activity
11 is very appropriate given the architectural
12 character of the buildings.
13 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, in
14 your expert opinion as an architect, does
15 the building have any utility value without
16 extensive renovation and reconstruction?
17 MR. THROWER: Not in my
18 opinion, it has absolutely no value. It
19 requires a great deal of work.
20 MR. KELSEN: What would happen
21 if the property was not redeveloped at this
22 time?
23 What would happen to the
24 property?
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1 MR. KRAKOWER: I'm going to
2 object. That's speculative.
3 CHAIRMAN KELLY: So noted. It
4 is what it is.
5 Answer the question.
6 MR. THROWER: In my opinion, if
7 the buildings are not renovated now and if
8 they are not converted to residential uses,
9 they will lie empty and gradually
10 deteriorate over the coming years.
11 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, let's
12 focus on the flood aspects affecting the
13 property.
14 And would you describe to the
15 Board in detail the steps that will be
16 undertaken to minimize, and, in fact,
17 better the floodway situation as a result
18 of this new development?
19 MR. THROWER: Well, one of the
20 primary points I made earlier is that we
21 are dramatically reducing, that is more
22 than half the amount of building volume
23 within the floodway.
24 We are constructing all of our
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
39
1 new apartments as well as those within the
2 historic buildings completely above the
3 floodplain. That is a minimum of one and a
4 half feet.
5 MR. KELSEN: And, Mr. Thrower,
6 let me ask you then how high is that?
7 What's the dimension that
8 you're going to --
9 MR. THROWER: That's
10 approximately 14 feet above grade.
11 MR. KELSEN: Is it fair to say
12 there will be no residential occupancy or
13 no new construction anywhere between the
14 grade and 14 feet in height?
15 MR. THROWER: There will be no
16 new construction for residential use.
17 Of course there will be new
18 construction for access ways, the bottoms
19 of emergency stairs, and the entry lobbies.
20 In addition to building above
21 the floodplain, we are providing at the
22 second-floor level an emergency egress
23 bridge over to the Leverington Avenue
24 bridge, so that in the case of flooding
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
40
1 residents have a way of walking out of the
2 building onto higher ground.
3 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, are
4 you aware that the development of this
5 project will comply with Federal Emergency
6 Management Agency codes and regulations in
7 order to permit its new construction and
8 redevelopment?
9 MR. THROWER: It absolutely
10 will. We haven't developed that in detail
11 of course at this point, but we certainly
12 will.
13 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Thrower, in
14 your expert opinion as an architect, do you
15 feel that the parking configuration is
16 appropriate for the type of development
17 that we're describing before the Board
18 today?
19 MR. THROWER: Most appropriate.
20 It is sometimes considered unusual to
21 double-stack automobiles, but we think it
22 is completely appropriate for residential
23 use where both of those automobiles are
24 under the control of one household.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1 MR. KELSEN: Do you feel that
2 there is any basis, from an engineering and
3 architectural standpoint, to have lot sizes
4 that are 10 by 20 as required in the G-2
5 industrial code?
6 MR. THROWER: None whatsoever.
7 For people who drive their own automobiles
8 and control them on a daily basis, eight
9 and a half by 18 is the acceptable standard
10 throughout Philadelphia for residential
11 use.
12 MR. KELSEN: In fact, Mr.
13 Thrower, if you had to put larger spaces on
14 the site and more aisle ways, would you, in
15 fact, create more impervious coverage on
16 the property?
17 MR. THROWER: You would, and it
18 would certainly reduce the amount of any
19 green buffer that could be provided.
20 MR. KELSEN: Would that have
21 any impact on floodway conditions, having
22 more impervious coverage?
23 MR. THROWER: Of course it
24 will. It's got to impact it negatively.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
42
1 MR. KELSEN: I have no further
2 questions of Mr. Thrower.
3 MR. KRAKOWER: I do. I have
4 some.
5 Mr. Thrower, I'm Stanley
6 Krakower. I represent some of the
7 community people around, including the
8 Friends of Manayunk Canal.
9 With respect to -- first of
10 all, with respect to your qualifications,
11 do you by any chance have a written
12 curriculum vitae that you could submit?
13 MR. THROWER: I certainly
14 could. I don't have it with me.
15 MR. KRAKOWER: I wonder if we
16 could ask if we could get that?
17 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Please submit
18 that to the Board, sir, at your earliest
19 convenience.
20 MR. KRAKOWER: Thank you.
21 Now, you talked about having experience
22 with a similar project.
23 Could you identify specifically
24 what projects you consider to be similar to
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
43
1 this and its most important aspects that
2 you've engineered or that you've been the
3 architect on?
4 MR. THROWER: We have recently
5 completed for the same development company
6 the old National Publishing Building at
7 24th and Locust.
8 That was an industrial building
9 which was renovated for residential use as
10 well as parking.
11 MR. KRAKOWER: Can I ask you,
12 Mr. Thrower, is that building in the
13 floodway or the fringe of the floodway, or
14 is it actually in the floodway as
15 distinguished from the fringe?
16 MR. THROWER: It is in the
17 floodplain which cuts, I believe,
18 diagonally across the site so that the
19 upper corner of the site is not in the
20 floodplain but the lower corner is.
21 MR. KRAKOWER: Now are you
22 familiar with what I mean when I say the
23 fringe of the floodplain?
24 Are you sure it's not in the
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
44
1 fringe?
2 I just want to make sure that
3 we're talking about the difference
4 between --
5 MR. THROWER: Well, I guess I
6 would have to know how you're using that
7 word.
8 MR. KRAKOWER: You're in the
9 floodplain?
10 MR. THROWER: In the 100-year
11 floodplain.
12 MR. KRAKOWER: How much of that
13 24th and Chestnut Street building is in the
14 floodplain?
15 MR. THROWER: About 50 percent.
16 MR. KRAKOWER: And would I be
17 correct that with this project, just about
18 all of it is in the floodplain?
19 MR. THROWER: That's correct,
20 sir.
21 MR. KRAKOWER: Now, you
22 indicated that the buildings that are on
23 the site now have not been repaired for
24 some time?
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
45
1 MR. THROWER: Well, they appear
2 that way. I don't really have the repair
3 history.
4 MR. KRAKOWER: That's what I
5 was going to ask you.
6 Do you know, do you have any
7 knowledge as to when they were last
8 repaired or maintained?
9 MR. THROWER: No, sir, I do
10 not. I'm just going by visual appearance.
11 MR. KRAKOWER: Am I not correct
12 that these were in use for industrial
13 purposes as recently as six months ago?
14 MR. THROWER: That's correct,
15 but all of the buildings were not in use.
16 I believe only a portion were
17 at the end of the company's operation.
18 I couldn't tell you exactly
19 what portion.
20 MR. KRAKOWER: I was going to
21 ask do you know what portion. You don't?
22 MR. THROWER: No.
23 MR. KRAKOWER: Now, you talked
24 about you're going to be reducing some of
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
46
1 the buildings.
2 Have you done a study of the
3 weight or bearing factors of the buildings
4 you're going to reduce compared to the
5 weight and bearing capacities of the
6 buildings that you'll be replacing them
7 with?
8 MR. THROWER: No, we have not
9 done that specific study you're talking
10 about.
11 Since we're removing one and
12 two-story structures and adding five
13 stories of structure, it's likely that the
14 pure dead weight of the new construction
15 will be greater than that of the existing
16 buildings.
17 MR. KRAKOWER: So that in terms
18 of the capacity of the ground, it's going
19 to be expected to hold perhaps more weight
20 than the weight of the buildings you're
21 eliminating?
22 MR. THROWER: Well, we don't
23 bear on the top of the ground so it's
24 really not a terribly important issue.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
47
1 We will go down to appropriate
2 bearing. Whether that's done through
3 friction piles or down to rock, it matters
4 little what the buildings weigh.
5 MR. KRAKOWER: Have you done
6 studies with regard to the soil and the
7 earth that comprises Venice Island; what
8 it's made up of in its structure and its
9 capacity?
10 MR. THROWER: We have not to
11 date. We will, of course.
12 MR. KRAKOWER: So are you
13 saying that you don't know what depth
14 pilings, for example, you might need in
15 order to have a firm under footing?
16 MR. THROWER: I don't. Perhaps
17 Mr. Dranoff does.
18 CHAIRMAN KELLY: You can only
19 answer for yourself. If you don't know,
20 you don't know.
21 MR. KRAKOWER: Well, I'm asking
22 you. Mr. Dranoff may testify later.
23 I'm asking you, Mr. Thrower, do
24 you have any knowledge as to -- or
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
48
1 engineering that's been done as to the
2 depth of pilings or the number of pilings
3 or any other engineering regarding what's
4 necessary to hold up these five-story
5 buildings?
6 MR. KELSEN: Before you answer,
7 Mr. Thrower, I'm going to object because
8 now we're starting to get into building
9 permit and excavation and shoring issues.
10 Normally that's not an issue for the Zoning
11 Board.
12 It has to meet the Philadelphia
13 code, it has to be approved by a
14 Philadelphia construction engineer, and
15 normally, once you get through a zoning
16 process, you start to engineer your project
17 for bearings.
18 So I would submit that that's
19 not an appropriate question for today.
20 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Objection so
21 noted.
22 If he can answer the question,
23 you can answer. If you can't, you can't.
24 MR. THROWER: We have not taken
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
49
1 our studies to that degree of detail yet.
2 MR. KRAKOWER: Now, you
3 indicated that you intend to comply with
4 federal requirements that deal with
5 building in a floodplain and state
6 requirements.
7 Is that correct?
8 MR. THROWER: That's our
9 intention, yes.
10 MR. KRAKOWER: Have you
11 undertaken studies with respect to what
12 those requirements are and how you intend
13 to satisfy them?
14 MR. THROWER: Only in the broad
15 brush, and that is that we must build above
16 the floodplain and that is what we're going
17 to do.
18 MR. KRAKOWER: Other than that,
19 with respect to, for example, how to
20 maintain the distance between the ground
21 and the -- I think you said 14 feet?
22 MR. THROWER: Approximately.
23 MR. KRAKOWER: Approximately 14
24 feet, and then above the 14 feet you're
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
50
1 going to have a five-story building.
2 Is that correct?
3 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
4 MR. KRAKOWER: And have you
5 taken into consideration and engineered the
6 effect on -- strike that. Let me go back.
7 What are the five-story
8 buildings going to stand on? Pilings?
9 MR. THROWER: They'll stand on
10 columns. Whether they're steel or concrete
11 we don't know at this point.
12 We're doing cost investigations
13 to determine the most advantageous
14 construction technique.
15 MR. KRAKOWER: So at this point
16 you don't know whether they're going to
17 stand on concrete, steel, wood?
18 MR. THROWER: Well certainly
19 not on wood.
20 MR. KRAKOWER: Do you know what
21 size you'll need, the width of them?
22 MR. THROWER: No, sir, not yet.
23 CHAIRMAN KELLY: He's already
24 answered that it's not that far into the
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1 job yet.
2 MR. KRAKOWER: Do you know how
3 many of them you'll need?
4 MR. THROWER: No, sir.
5 MR. KRAKOWER: How far apart
6 you'll have to have them, whether you'll
7 need one every 3 feet --
8 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Sir, he said
9 that they haven't been that far into the
10 job yet.
11 MR. KRAKOWER: Now, you
12 indicated that you intend to comply with
13 the Building Code.
14 Are you familiar with Building
15 Code provisions that say there should be no
16 new development or construction in a
17 floodway or in a floodplain?
18 MR. THROWER: Of habitable
19 space as I understand it, and we are not
20 providing habitable space in the floodplain
21 or floodway.
22 MR. KRAKOWER: But all of this
23 is in the floodplain or floodway.
24 MR. THROWER: The existing
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
52
1 buildings are. We are not going to reuse
2 any of the first floor of the existing
3 buildings. They will be empty or used for
4 dead storage.
5 We're only going to occupy the
6 second floor and above so as to comply with
7 that requirement.
8 MR. KRAKOWER: So you're just
9 going to leave them empty?
10 MR. THROWER: Essentially, that
11 is correct.
12 MR. KRAKOWER: So that if you
13 get a flood, they can be filled up with
14 water?
15 MR. THROWER: That's possible
16 if we were to get a flood.
17 MR. KRAKOWER: Have you
18 examined the traffic situation with regard
19 to how the 214 cars -- is that what you're
20 planning, 214 spaces -- will get off and on
21 the island?
22 I believe there are just the
23 limited bridges.
24 Do you know where the bridges
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
53
1 are and their capacity?
2 MR. THROWER: I'm not a traffic
3 engineer so I can't answer that in great
4 detail.
5 I can only say anecdotally, if
6 you will, from my observation, that most
7 traffic is likely to go down Main Street
8 and disburse.
9 MR. KRAKOWER: I'm talking
10 about the traffic at, say, 5 o'clock or
11 5:30 going to these apartments on Venice
12 Island.
13 MR. THROWER: No, sir. As I
14 said, I'm not a traffic engineer.
15 MR. KELSEN: We will have a
16 traffic engineer in a few minutes.
17 MR. KRAKOWER: Now, in the
18 event of flooding -- this is in the
19 floodplain of the Schuylkill River; you
20 acknowledge that?
21 MR. THROWER: Yes, sir.
22 MR. KRAKOWER: You indicated
23 that the plans include some sort of escape
24 route for the residents to escape to high
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
54
1 ground in case of flooding?
2 There's a walkway or something?
3 MR. THROWER: We're providing a
4 bridge from our second floor over to
5 Leverington Avenue, which connects with the
6 high-side sidewalk on Main Street.
7 MR. KRAKOWER: How do you plan
8 to monitor that the people will get to that
9 bridge on time before the floods inundate
10 them?
11 MR. THROWER: As an architect I
12 won't monitor it. That will be a building
13 management issue.
14 MR. KRAKOWER: Now, you talked
15 about the Federal and State requirements.
16 Have you prepared any
17 compliance studies as to what it will take
18 to comply with those?
19 MR. THROWER: No, sir, not to
20 date.
21 MR. KRAKOWER: Are you at all
22 involved with policy regarding insurance
23 problems that the renters will have?
24 MR. THROWER: No, sir.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
55
1 MR. KELSEN: Objection. It's
2 irrelevant to this line of questioning.
3 MR. KRAKOWER: Have you done a
4 study as to the effect on the surrounding
5 properties, on Main Street and the
6 properties just on the opposite side of the
7 Canal, of flooding on Venice Island?
8 MR. THROWER: No, sir. I'm not
9 a civil engineer.
10 MR. KRAKOWER: Fair enough.
11 The automobiles themselves, they're not
12 going to be 14 feet up in the air, are
13 they; they're going to be on the ground?
14 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
15 MR. KRAKOWER: So they will be
16 within the floodplain?
17 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
18 MR. KRAKOWER: And in the event
19 of flooding, what will keep great numbers
20 of automobiles from floating down the
21 Schuylkill River?
22 MR. THROWER: I guess what
23 keeps it in any parking lot in the
24 floodplain, people move their cars.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
56
1 MR. KRAKOWER: Have you ever
2 seen some of the photographs from last
3 summer, when remnants of Hurricane Floyd
4 hit here and cars and trucks were floating
5 down the Schuylkill River to the East Falls
6 Bridge?
7 Have you seen any of those
8 photographs?
9 MR. THROWER: I have, yes.
10 MR. KRAKOWER: What will
11 prevent similar instances from happening
12 here?
13 MR. THROWER: Only poor
14 building management, and that's not the
15 case with this developer.
16 All the residents will be
17 alerted.
18 MR. KRAKOWER: How will they be
19 alerted?
20 MR. THROWER: I can't answer
21 that specifically.
22 MR. KRAKOWER: Do you know when
23 they'll be alerted?
24 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Dranoff is
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
57
1 here and he can answer those questions,
2 Stan.
3 MR. KRAKOWER: I'm just
4 wondering the extent to which --
5 CHAIRMAN KELLY: He can't
6 answer the question, sir.
7 MR. KRAKOWER: -- those
8 elements have been architected(sic), if
9 there's such a word.
10 Finally, have you as the
11 architect examined requirements of the
12 Pennsylvania Emergency Management Council,
13 Pennsylvania Environmental Council, Federal
14 Emergency Management, those kinds of
15 organizations?
16 MR. THROWER: No, sir.
17 MR. KRAKOWER: In terms of how
18 this project is in or out of compliance
19 with those requirements?
20 MR. THROWER: I have not.
21 MR. KRAKOWER: Isn't it part of
22 the requirements for the City of
23 Philadelphia that the project be in
24 compliance with Federal and State
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
58
1 regulations?
2 MR. THROWER: It will be in
3 compliance when the project is completely
4 designed and engineered.
5 MR. KRAKOWER: But at this
6 point you don't know how?
7 I mean you don't know how
8 you're going to do that?
9 MR. THROWER: We haven't gotten
10 into the detail other than establish the
11 building configuration totally up and out
12 of the floodway.
13 MR. KELSEN: I would point out,
14 if I may, that the note to the Zoning Board
15 that was issued by L & I requires that the
16 engineering studies be produced to the
17 satisfaction of the Planning Commission
18 before a zoning permit and building permit
19 is issued, and I think the record should
20 reflect that.
21 MR. KRAKOWER: At this moment,
22 though, those are not available?
23 MR. KELSEN: We haven't
24 engineered the project yet.
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
59
1 MR. KRAKOWER: One last thing,
2 I don't think we, the Protestants group,
3 have a copy of this plan.
4 Can we get that?
5 MR. KELSEN: Absolutely. We'll
6 give you an extra copy.
7 MR. KRAKOWER: At this moment I
8 have no further questions of Mr. Thrower.
9 MR. O'BRIEN: I have three or
10 four questions of Mr. Thrower.
11 Mr. Thrower, my name is William
12 O'Brien.
13 The existing structure is
14 four-stories high?
15 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
16 MR. O'BRIEN: And how many feet
17 high is the existing structure?
18 MR. THROWER: About 80 feet.
19 MR. O'BRIEN: And how high is
20 the proposed structure with the 14 feet and
21 then five stories?
22 MR. THROWER: About 95 feet.
23 MR. O'BRIEN: So you're
24 proposing a structure that will be 15 feet
DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1 higher than the current structure?
2 MR. THROWER: Approximately,
3 that's correct.
4 And I was talking about the
5 existing structures, the basic floor
6 levels -- actually, I stand corrected, the
7 roofs and penthouses and various
8 supertinences(ph) are probably 85 feet in
9 the existing building, so we're maybe ten
10 feet higher.
11 MR. O'BRIEN: Let me be more
12 specific, then.
13 What is the height of the green
14 buildings depicted in this drawing that you
15 intend to keep on this site?
16 MR. THROWER: I'm going by
17 scale here, approximately 85 feet. And
18 we're, with new construction, about 95.
19 You must understand, though,
20 the roofs jump all over the place, so a
21 ten-foot differential in that kind of
22 dimension is very compatible.
23 MR. O'BRIEN: Now, the foot
24 bridge you described earlier, is that going
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1 to be available for the residents for
2 routine use or just emergency use?
3 MR. THROWER: As we're planning
4 it now, just for emergency use.
5 MR. O'BRIEN: If it was
6 approved, could it be available for
7 everyday use?
8 MR. THROWER: Probably not. It
9 would complicate security and access to the
10 building.
11 MR. O'BRIEN: And will all 160
12 units have access to that foot bridge?
13 MR. THROWER: Yes, sir.
14 MR. O'BRIEN: Have you
15 estimated the cost of construction per unit
16 for these 160 units?
17 MR. THROWER: We have studies
18 along those lines in the works now. We
19 don't have any final number to talk about
20 now.
21 MR. O'BRIEN: When would you
22 have that number?
23 MR. THROWER: I don't have a
24 date I can give you at this point.
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1 MR. O'BRIEN: Can you
2 estimate -- let me ask this, then.
3 Does the cost of creating these
4 160 units, could you compare the cost to
5 create 160 units in a building that you
6 don't have to comply with FEMA regulations?
7 MR. KELSEN: Objection to
8 relevancy.
9 MR. O'BRIEN: Well, we're going
10 to find out -- the applicant has alleged a
11 hardship, I presume, so I want to find out
12 the cost to create these 160 units and
13 comply with FEMA as opposed to creating 160
14 new units where you don't have to comply
15 with that requirement.
16 MR. KELSEN: But that's not the
17 hardship that we're demonstrating. We're
18 demonstrating physical hardship. There's
19 been no testimony of economic hardship.
20 MR. O'BRIEN: I would still
21 like an answer to the question.
22 MR. KELSEN: We're happy to
23 provide -- I think Mr. Dranoff, when he
24 steps up, will tell you what his estimated
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1 cost of overall construction is.
2 MR. O'BRIEN: Okay.
3 And what would the cost be from your
4 experience as an architect to construct 160
5 units where you don't have to comply with
6 floodway issues?
7 MR. THROWER: Minimally less
8 than this. The only additional burden are
9 the columns that bring us up above grade.
10 But all of the actual
11 construction of the apartments and all of
12 their setback, the roof, the wall, floors,
13 is all exactly the same.
14 MR. O'BRIEN: And lastly, your
15 experience on 24th Street was the
16 renovation of a historic structure and the
17 rededication of that structure to a
18 residential use, and that is similar to
19 this project.
20 The difference, from what I
21 understand you described, is that half of
22 the 24th Street structure was in the
23 floodplain, and that all of this site is in
24 the floodway.
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1 Would you please describe for
2 the Board the difference between the
3 floodplain and the floodway?
4 MR. THROWER: Well, the
5 floodway is where the waters are actually
6 moving and rushing during the flood, as I
7 understand it.
8 And we have an obligation not
9 to impede the flow of water anymore than
10 what is there now. Technically we're
11 grandfathered, if you will, for what exists
12 on the site.
13 But as I said, when we leave
14 the site there will be less than half of
15 the structural volume on the site as what
16 there is there today to impede water flow.
17 MR. O'BRIEN: So you are
18 proposing a development that will create --
19 when you are fished, not compared to what
20 is there today, but when you are finished
21 with this project there will be about
22 23,000 square feet to impediment to that
23 rushing water?
24 MR. THROWER: The lion's share
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1 of that, all of the green buildings, are
2 historic buildings on the national register
3 that, yes, we are proposing to leave in
4 place. We don't plan to demolish them.
5 MR. O'BRIEN: No further
6 questions.
7 MR. KRAKOWER: Can I ask one
8 other question, if I may. Correct me if
9 I'm wrong.
10 Would it be fair to say that
11 your estimate of the volume of what will be
12 impediments in the floodway after you're
13 finished does not include the volume of the
14 columns on which the buildings stand
15 themselves?
16 MR. THROWER: Yes, it does.
17 MR. KRAKOWER: It does.
18 How can you do that if you don't know the
19 number or the size of the columns?
20 MR. THROWER: We made an
21 educated guess based on typical residential
22 base of about 25 feet.
23 The columns are absolutely
24 minimal in terms of the big issue. They
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1 represent almost none of the volume.
2 MR. KRAKOWER: How can you say
3 that if you don't know what the columns
4 stand on, and you testified you don't know
5 the number or the size or the dimensions or
6 the material of those columns?
7 MR. THROWER: I don't know them
8 from a finally engineered point of view.
9 I do know the columns are
10 approximately two feet by two feet.
11 They're not 20 feet by 20 feet.
12 So that's a reasonable educated
13 guess.
14 MS. JAFFE: Are they here on
15 the plan?
16 MR. THROWER: Yes, ma'am, they
17 are. They can be counted.
18 MS. JAFFE: And are they the
19 square dark marks?
20 MR. THROWER: That's correct.
21 MS. JAFFE: So if you look at
22 it you can get an idea of the scale of
23 those.
24 MR. KRAKOWER: My question is,
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1 how could we know that that is what the
2 size and the number of columns that are
3 ultimately going to be required until
4 you've done the engineering on the soil on
5 which those columns will be embedded?
6 MR. THROWER: I can't know,
7 until the engineering is completed,
8 precisely.
9 But I do know from 30 years of
10 practice that this is within 10 percent of
11 what those columns will be, and that
12 represents just a negligible amount of
13 building volume.
14 MR. KRAKOWER: And that's based
15 on what; within 10 percent is based on
16 what?
17 MR. THROWER: Typical
18 residential structural base.
19 MR. KRAKOWER: But you don't
20 know if this earth or this fill, whatever
21 it's on Venice Island, is typical, do you?
22 MR. THROWER: That will not
23 impact the column size.
24 That will impact the
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1 foundations below grade, whether they be
2 spread footings or caissons or piles or
3 whatever. We don't know that yet.
4 But we will go down to
5 appropriate bearing.
6 MR. KRAKOWER: You have no idea
7 where that is?
8 MR. THROWER: We don't yet.
9 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Any other
10 questions of this witness, sir?
11 MR. KELSEN: I have nothing
12 more for this witness.
13 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Okay. Thank
14 you, Mr. Thrower.
15 We're going to adjourn this
16 hearing now.
17 How many more witnesses do you
18 intend to call?
19 MR. KELSEN: I have a civil
20 engineer and a flood expert, a traffic
21 expert and Mr. Dranoff, so I think
22 basically, at the most, three more
23 witnesses.
24 I know the Planning Commission
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1 will offer a Statement of Recommendation.
2 I think they'll do that by letter.
3 I would like to hand in, if I
4 could, since we're going to break, some
5 letters of non-opposition that I have, so
6 we have that in the record, if you don't
7 mind, and maybe now is a good time to do
8 that.
9 I would like to introduce and
10 incorporate in the record a letter which is
11 dated November 12th, 1999 from the Manayunk
12 Development Corporation signed by Kay
13 Smith, Executive Director addressed to
14 Thomas Kelly.
15 I would ask that we incorporate
16 it into the record indicating their
17 non-opposition to this development project.
18 And to the application before the Board.
19 In addition, I would like to
20 hand up and ask to have incorporated into
21 the record a letter dated November 19th,
22 1999 from the Central Manayunk Council
23 signed by John Teague, T-e-a-g-u-e,
24 President, informing Mr. Dranoff -- it is
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1 addressed to Mr. Dranoff, that Central
2 Manayunk Council is not opposed to the
3 plans to develop the site of the Namico
4 soap factory, providing that we conform
5 with the recommendations set forth by the
6 Philadelphia Planning Commission, which, of
7 course, we would.
8 And I would ask to have that
9 submitted and introduced as well into the
10 record.
11 And, Mr. Chairman, if you want,
12 we can break at this point our testimony.
13 CHAIRMAN KELLY: I would like
14 you to meet with these others neighbors
15 that are here --
16 MR. KELSEN: Mr. Chairman, with
17 all due respect, I've met with them. I've
18 met with them over six months, and I don't
19 think --
20 CHAIRMAN KELLY: -- and if you
21 could come to terms...
22 MR. KELSEN: I would love to.
23 I will endeavor to do it again, Mr.
24 Chairman.
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1 CHAIRMAN KELLY: Whatever
2 objections you have, settle them.
3 MR. KRAKOWER: I greatly doubt,
4 considering the health and safety issues
5 that we see here, I greatly doubt it can be
6 done, Mr. Chairman.
7 We also have some experts we'll
8 be presenting.
9 CHAIRMAN KELLY: How many?
10 MR. KRAKOWER: Two at least,
11 possibly a third. Who are geologists and
12 engineers and will testify to -- in a
13 manner very contrary to that of Mr. Thrower
14 with regard to the safety factors that are
15 involved in the proposed development in the
16 floodway.
17 So this is, I would say, we'll
18 have maybe an hour and a half altogether
19 for our case.
20 MR. KELSEN: I figure we'll
21 have about an hour, also.
22 CHAIRMAN KELLY: You, sir?
23 MR. O'BRIEN: Three witnesses,
24 probably about 20, 25 minutes.
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1 CHAIRMAN KELLY: We'll notify
2 you as quickly as possible about the
3 hearing.
4 (Hearing adjourned.)
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1 REPORTER CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, ANGELA C. BUONANTUONO, a Shorthand
4 Reporter and Foreign Commissioner of Deeds for the
5 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, certify that the
6 foregoing is a true and accurate transcript of the
7 hearing of said witness(es) who were first duly
8 sworn on the date and place hereinbefore set
9 forth.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither
11 attorney nor counsel for, nor related to or
12 employed by, any of the parties to the action in
13 which this hearing was taken, and further that I
14 am not a relative or employee of any attorney or
15 counsel employed in this action, nor am I
16 financially interested in this case.
17
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_______________________________
21 ANGELA C. SILVESTRE-BUONANTUONO
Shorthand Reporter
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